For those who missed the KJZZ show

28 May 2010 05:19 pm
Posted by: Donna

Podcast here.

Being a big self-critic I feel like I missed some opportunities to get important points across and rebut a few things Tom Liddy said, but overall I think I did okay. 23 minutes of back and forth between the three of us on the panel and Steve made it hard to make drawn out statements about the very complex issue of immigration.

The one part of the show where Liddy got under my skin was when he accused the Democrats of “ginning up” anger over SB1070 for electoral purposes. Totally wrong. The outrage was instantaneous and genuine. Democrats didn’t have to do a damn thing to make people angry about the bill. It’s clear that Liddy and a lot of other Anglo supporters of SB1070 can’t wrap their minds around the fact that many in the group of people targeted by the law (Hispanics) would find it, and the rhetoric coming from supporters (“anchor babies” “leeches” and the like) to be frightening and profoundly offensive.

Obviously, I’m not a Latina. But as a woman I’ve been in innumerable situations with men where they’ve behaved in a way that I found to be objectionable. Because I’m no shrinking violet I tend to call them on it. Guys, there are several productive ways to respond when a woman tells you you’re being sexist. I promise you that one of them is not to say to her, “Oh, you’re overreacting”. Following that up by directing her to “calm down” is not advised either. I can tell you that when this happens to me several sensations will course through my being. I assure you that a sense of calmness is not among them. SB1070 supporters’ claims that Hispanic opponents (and that’s who they’re talking about, make no mistake) are making a big fuss over nothing are the rhetorical equivalent of men telling women we’re being hysterical. Having your perspective and lived experience dismissed in such a flippant condescending manner is infuriating, to say the least.

23 Comments

  1. Comment by Diane D'Angelo on May 28, 2010 5:41 pm

    Wish I would have heard it, but I trust you captured the vibe quite nicely. I’m struck at the inability of the wingers to comprehend that fellow white people might have a problem with 1070 and anti-immigrant sentiment in general. Fact is, some of us moved beyond either/or thinking a long, long time ago.

  2. Comment by Alan Scott on May 30, 2010 6:18 pm

    Donna,

    You are misstating the issue . Racism is a total Red Herring. The issue is the US cannot handle millions of poor, poorly educated people coming across the border every year.

    Our economy simply cannot absorb them with out terrible problems . You and the rest of the open borders crowd throw in all kinds of other mud to deliberately cloud the issue .

    Big business wants new slave labor and Democrats want new voters.

    It’s been brought up that Mexico has a far more severe immigration policy than the US or Arizona, because they cannot absorb all of the illegals coming in through their Southern border. Are they “Racist ” like right wingers and 70% of Arizonans ?

    You wear your racism and sexism badges like they are medals. What was it you told me one time, get off the cross other people need the wood .

  3. Comment by Donna on May 30, 2010 6:22 pm

    Oh hi, Alan, it’s been a while.

    Honestly, there’s no point in debating this issue with you since you are ascribing positions to me (“open borders”) that I don’t hold.

  4. Comment by Alan Scott on May 31, 2010 3:36 pm

    Donna,

    ” Oh hi, Alan, it’s been a while. ”

    I was off line because.

    !) Hard Drive crash.
    2) Tough economy.
    3)Visiting future inlaws
    4)Went kayaking.
    5)All of the above.

    ” Honestly, there’s no point in debating this issue with you since you are ascribing positions to me (“open borders”) that I don’t hold. ”

    Honestly, that is very hard to understand, giving your stance against any kind of effective enforcement of immigration law .

  5. Comment by Appleblossom on May 31, 2010 10:37 pm

    She has always been in favor of going after the source of the problem but again, not that you notice.

  6. Comment by dude on May 31, 2010 10:47 pm

    Alan Scott,

    “” Oh hi, Alan, it’s been a while. ”

    I was off line because.”

    No one cares because,

    !) You are a condescending douche

  7. Comment by Truth08 on June 1, 2010 4:20 pm

    Huppenthal’s comment about SB1070’s “radioactive” status seemed appropriate.

    Guess non of them “buycott” businesses would of wanted to tarnish their image??

    So they just don’t show up.

    Imagine that??

    Regards,
    Truth08

  8. Comment by Alan Scott on June 1, 2010 7:52 pm

    dude,

    Condescending douche. Such language coming from a liberal eunuch. I go out of my way to be civil and polite to express my views and this is how you treat me .

    Why don’t you screw you brain back into your colon and try to refute my arguments ?

  9. Comment by dude on June 1, 2010 9:34 pm

    Liberal eunuch? I sing bass.

    Also brains don’t get screwed into colons. Light bulbs do. Well, not mine anyway.

  10. Comment by Alan Scott on June 2, 2010 9:30 am

    dude,

    Trust me, I can more than match you in gutter talk. How about we discuss something important?

    Are you an open borders guy ? I just was sent pictures from the border of the trash from the illegal human traffic. It’s amazing how beautiful the desert is when it is a garbage dump .

  11. Comment by dude on June 2, 2010 10:13 am

    Oh man, I’m scared of your gutter talk. Please, spare us your gutter talk!

    You get sent pictures of things? I get sent pictures of things too, like giant oil spills and furries dancing around terrified Medicare-dependant republican primary voters, but if I try to show people them teabaggers get all pissy and offended. I try telling them I’m sorry if they were offended and I’m only being politically incorrect, but that makes it worse because then they start babbling about how me and Obama are trying to shove things up or down their bodily orifices and I just get too aroused to concentrate.

  12. Comment by Alan Scott on June 2, 2010 6:25 pm

    dude,

    I did try to be civil. I did ask you a direct question. Just to remind you, the topic was immigration. The question was your position on open borders.

    I see you have no interest in debating me.

  13. Comment by dude on June 2, 2010 6:55 pm

    Alan Scott,

    Actually I am interested in debating you. For example, you seem like the type of guy who would advocate shooting people who attempt to cross the border, but do you prefer a headshot so they die quickly or a stomach wound so then are alive in agony for hours before expiring so as to frighten people even more into not crossing?

    Also do you want them to be shot at the border, or randomly a couple miles inside so as to get there hopes up just enough that it’s really crushing when a bullet rips through their torso?

    Can you please answer my question? You should answer my question first because I said please and you asked if I would debate you, not the other way around.

  14. Comment by Alan Scott on June 3, 2010 4:23 pm

    dude,

    ” You should answer my question first because I said please and you asked if I would debate you, not the other way around. ”

    As the lone Conservative on a Liberal Blog, I am conscious of your pathetic attempt to bait me into writing something that could get me banned . But since I love to expose hypocrisy, mendacity, and stupidity, I will to paraphrase Spencer Tracy, play in your ballpark.

    In regard to your questions about a head shot or stomach wound, I’m surprised about your interest. I thought you Liberals were all terrified of firearms. And I never use the term stomach wound. Anyone who ever saw one would say gut shot.

    I do not favor shooting illegals coming across the border. I know nobody who does.

    You open borders people have distorted what the State of Arizona has done . Arizona is enforcing immigration law that President Obama refuses to follow.

  15. Comment by dude on June 3, 2010 11:13 pm

    Oh ok, what I thought I was doing was playing in your ballpark, which means we can just make shit up about each other and then demand we defend said made up shit.

    And it looks like you’re still playing by those rules, so I will too.

    You’re all about enforcing the law because people who break the law are filthy lawbreakers who deserve no mercy, so in what graphic way should we punish people for jaywalking and spitting in public- crossbow to the face or forcefeeding them cupcakes until they die in a diabetic coma?

    If people can’t respect our laws then they should get the heck out. Or die. Whichever one makes me feel better about being an irrelevant middle aged jobless hack with no marketable skills or ethnic history of oppression to capitalize on.

  16. Comment by Guy Gardner on June 4, 2010 3:09 pm

    Mr. Scott,

    I always smirk with some amusement when someone far removed from the border professes some degree of extensive knowledge on the issues we face here and dismisses the opinions of those of us who live and work on the frontier as naive and ignorant. This is largely a product of the current conservative political culture that holds that strong opinions are the same as expertise.

    Ms. Gratehouse tells me that you are from well outside the state of Arizona and well beyond the border, so your opinions, one can assume, are largely informed by things you have heard second or third hand rather than what you have actually seen or experienced. I am not saying that you have no right to your opinion, but please respect those of us who have actually lived and worked in the community directly affected by these policies before you dismiss us as ignorant.

    I worked for the Tohono O’odham Nation for 5 years (1998-2003), during a time when the situation on the border deteriorated considerably despite an impressive and astronomical increase in law enforcement mobilization. I saw citizens, including myself, harassed by border patrol for going about their daily business. I saw increasingly desperate people who continued to cross the line despite our best efforts to stop them. Enforcement as a policy has largely been a failure and an imposition on law-biding citizens, but it does make some people feel better, which I guess is the whole purpose, isn’t it?

    No one in Arizona who has been following the debate that led to SB 1070, something that has been going on for years, can honestly say that the issue is not about race. Much of the rhetoric, from Russell Pearce and others, has been about race. It is also impossible to envision how 1070 will be enforced without profiling by race, which is why nearly every cop in the state above the rank of sergeant was leery of this. So, please do not pretend that this has nothing to do with picking on Mexican-Americans.

    You are absolutely right that Mexico has stricter immigration laws than the United States, but I doubt very much that you or anybody else would hold up Mexico as a beacon of civil liberties. At best, we can argue that our neighbor at times tries really hard to do better, but I think their human rights record leaves much to be desired, and I am sure that the folks who post here will agree. Do you really want to make the argument that we should be emulating Mexico in this regard?

    Thanks,

    Tom Prezelski

  17. Comment by Alan Scott on June 4, 2010 3:58 pm

    dude,

    ” You’re all about enforcing the law because people who break the law are filthy lawbreakers who deserve no mercy, so in what graphic way should we punish people for jaywalking and spitting in public- crossbow to the face or forcefeeding them cupcakes until they die in a diabetic coma? ”

    You are so filled with hatred that you only hear what other Liberals tell you about Conservatives. Where the hell do you get this crap ?

    Our economy simply cannot absorb millions of poor from Mexico. We can not afford the strain on our hospitals, our schools, our welfare system. Can you grasp that?

    Putting up a physical fence, putting enough guards to man it on the border, and deporting illegals is not shooting people, force feeding them cupcakes, or any of the rest of the nonsense someone filled your head with.

    If you got to know us, you would probably like Conservatives .

    ” being an irrelevant middle aged jobless hack with no marketable skills or ethnic history of oppression to capitalize on.”

    It would seem that Liberalism has not kept it’s promises to you. Ever think about switching teams ?

  18. Comment by dude on June 5, 2010 12:25 pm

    Alan Scott,

    You’re really showing that blowhards like you don’t understand when you’re being mocked. No wonder your impotent rage has born one of the most culturally illiterate movements in American history.

    I am painfully light skinned and secure in my heterosexuality, with a full time job and marketable skills. When I’m down on my luck, I don’t blame it on not being a minority. I could never be bitter that someone else is getting help, because I and my family for generations were have gotten help from the public, help that we no longer need. The same thing has happened to you- you just refuse to believe it.

    Every response I’ve given you has been mocking you, but you never seem to get it. It’s been fun, douchebag.

  19. Comment by Alan Scott on June 6, 2010 12:19 pm

    dude,

    Right now you clowns run the country. You have the Presidency, huge majorities in both Houses, the 9th Circus Court, yet you are not filled with choy, as we say in Eastern Pa. We Conservatives have no power to stop you idiots from doing anything your bleeding hearts want to do to my country. And yet I hear nothing but, rage from you.

    Obama and Pelosi wanted to run the Country, they knew the job was dangerous when they took it. So run it. Fix immigration. Plug the damn hole. Get jobs for people. Make the World love us. Lower the sea levels.

  20. Comment by dude on June 6, 2010 1:04 pm

    You’re a god damn idiot if you think Obama can just wave a magic wand and undo all of the bullshit Republicans have fucked up in the last thirty years, especially when we have clowns like Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman using every opportunity to throw temper tantrums and the Republican caucus of all people refusing to pass cloture and screaming about a lack of bipartisanship, all the while voting against things Reid lets them bring to the floor.

    It makes me wonder if you know a damn thing about American politics. Eastern Pennsylvania? Are you fucking serious? Turn off the talk radio that’s telling you we’re being overrun by people you’re afraid of and come down here some time, you’ll see a place a lot like where you’re from– people mostly get along, except there are some that believe people different from them are the end of the world.

  21. Comment by Alan Scott on June 6, 2010 1:06 pm

    Tom Prezelski,

    If I seem over opinionated, I do not apologize . You seem to be the first rational being I have encountered on this board. Since every attempt at polite exchange of ideas, is met with scorn and insults, you will forgive me if I do not engage in an in depth conversation until I know what your intentions are.

    I will address one point you brought up.

    ” Do you really want to make the argument that we should be emulating Mexico in this regard? ”

    Yes. Mexico is relevant for two reasons. First (they) have joined the discussion by telling Americans how to run our immigration policy. Pointing out what total hypocrites the Mexican authorities are is absolutely fair.

    Second when you have an American President standing with a foreign leader and having both of them bash the President’s domestic political enemies (70%) of the people of Arizona, then yes pointing out what total hypocrites the Mexican authorities are is a good argument .

  22. Comment by Alan Scott on June 7, 2010 6:54 pm

    dude,

    ” You’re a god damn idiot if you think Obama can just wave a magic wand and undo all of the bullshit Republicans have fucked up in the last thirty years, ”

    And I bet you kiss your boyfriend with that filthy mouth too . You know what, Einstein I have no thoughts that your hero can accomplish anything positive with a magic wand or his talent as a BS artist. I just hold him accountable for what he said he would do.

    When will you do that ?

    ” Turn off the talk radio that’s telling you we’re being overrun by people you’re afraid of and come down here some time, ”

    Cool,you are inviting me to Arizona. Can I stay at your house ? Much as I would love to, the Obama economy means that I cannot afford to travel that far this year. One day perhaps I’ll come down on a Tea Party trip and we can counter protest one another. I bet you’re a kool dood in person.

    So now you live in Arizona and say that I have been grossly misinformed about the entire Illegal immigration situation in Arizona. That people I trust on talk radio are lying to me. You on the other hand are truthful. Who should I believe ? Them or some guy on a Blog who keeps calling me a DB? Difficult choice .

  23. Comment by Tom Prezelski on June 12, 2010 5:38 am

    Mr. Scott,

    Thank you for your reply. I apologize for taking so long to get back with you.

    What you say about Mexico’s immigration policy on its own southern frontier is factually correct, but quite irrelevant to the argument. We are not arguing about Mexico’s policies here, but our own. This being said, it is rather weak to argue that our own flawed policies are acceptable because Mexico is pursuing similarly flawed policies, with similarly tragic results. If all of your friends were jumping off of a cliff, would you jump too?

    While it is an article of faith among the right that immigration activists are acting as advocates or even agents of the Mexican government, the truth is quite the opposite. Isabel Garcia, a well known leader in these issues and my fellow Tucsonense, famously turned down a human rights award from the Mexican Congress two years ago in protest of Mexico’s policies. It would be difficult to find any support of Mexico’s policies or its government among people involved in this movement, and in fact, one is more likely to find strident and well-informed opposition.

    As for President Calderon, he was doing his duty in advocating for his citizens. This was much the same as when then-Governor Hull and, to a lesser extent, the Clinton State Department, stuck up for an Arizona resident who “accidentally” smuggled a pistol into Mexico in 1998. Yes, we have a duty to protect our sovereignty, but we also have a duty to respect the rights of other nation’s citizens as much as we expect other countries to respect ours.

    President Obama was acting under a similar obligation. The federal government has a well-established role of intervening when states fail to respect the civil rights of their citizens. The fact that 1070 polls well is irrelevant. I am sure that a majority of registered voters in Mississippi in 1964 saw nothing wrong with segregation either.

    Of course, it has been pointed out here and elsewhere that the poll you cite is problematic. But, you are right, a solid majority likes this law, though there is data that shows this support slipping somewhat, and also that the average Arizonan’s views on immigration policy is more nuanced and sophisticated than Governor Brewer’s, or yours, for that matter.

    You should check out this poll, for example: http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange/archives/2010/05/11/sb-1070-poll-71-of-americans-believe-new-immigration-law-will-lead-to-hispanics-getting-hassled-by-the-man

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