You are not the boss of me, Bill Montgomery

15 Dec 2012 01:49 pm
Posted by: Donna

Here’s Maricopa County Attorney Bill Montgomery’s stunningly inept and condescending statement on the Connecticut massacre:

“Gun control” will not end tragedies. At best, it would simply change the circumstances of tragedies. In THIS case, early indications are that the mental health of the killer, or lack thereof, is the determining factor. That should not be surprising. Who in their right mind would slaughter innocents? So, the discussion for our nation should focus on the assessment and delivery of mental health services. Currently, and even for us in Arizona, the criminal justice system becomes the default mental health provider. That is wrong. There should be a continuum of mental health services in the community with a narrower role for the criminal justice system. For example, I have spoken to parents of adult children who needed a judge’s supervision with the threat of incarceration to comply with a treatment plan but they were otherwise living on their own. Accordingly, the range of options could run from simple access to care/treatment for adults who can manage on their own, to supervised treatment plans, to small group homes, to state run large-scale facilities that provide for varying degrees of supervision but that retain physical control over individuals who cannot be responsible for their own care or who represent a threat to themselves or others. Now, before you bombard me with claims that we won’t dedicate resources, make it a priority, etc., we have to have a framework and plan for mental health delivery before simply saying more monies are the answer. Adding money to the current system in Arizona, for instance, will not resolve the need for a different delivery model.

We can honor the souls of 20 children with more than rhetoric over gun control.

Way to not “politicize” it, Bill. But yes, definitely, there needs to be more access to mental health services and it’s really unfortunate that it takes someone who is possibly mentally ill shooting a bunch of people to get everyone talking about our shockingly inadequate system. What truly sucks about that is it contributes to the stereotype of mentally ill people as violent. Montgomery’s view on mental illness seems to be skewed by his role as a prosecutor. No, it’s not true that the criminal justice system is the default provider of mental health services in general. It is only that for the small percentage of mentally ill people who are criminal offenders. Most mentally ill people without means are getting nothing. And mentally ill people are four times as likely to be the victims of assaults as they are to perpetrate them. They are also more likely to be impoverished and homeless. When Montgomery scoffs at the idea of putting more money in the system has he forgotten how much has been cut from health care in Arizona in the past few years? You know those 400K “childless adults” whom the Legislature cut off from Medicaid in 2011? A lot of them are going without badly needed mental health services. Guess they felt the small number of them who will go on to commit violence is an acceptable price to pay for a balanced budget and corporate tax cuts.

As far as “gun control rhetoric” goes, a maniac with an assault weapon and a bunch of ammo blows away a bunch of little kids and you know what people want to talk about? Yeah, they want to talk about gun control, even if it hurts the tender fee fees of guys like Bill Montgomery. Well, too bad. It’s long past time to tell these over-entitled gun fetishist crybabies to step the hell off and let the grownups talk.

34 Comments

  1. Comment by Mike Slater on December 15, 2012 2:54 pm

    So Donna, what’s your definition of an assault weapon? Is it any gun that looks scary?

    Schools are “gun free zones” which means that any crazy person that wants to kill people has a target rich environment.

    You liberals will never be happy until all guns are banned, which BTW will never happen.

    By, let the grownups talk I assume you mean liberals.

    Sorry but I don’t want anti-gun liberals deciding what kind of gun or what size magazine I should have. I’ll decide that.

  2. Comment by Timmys Cat on December 15, 2012 3:02 pm

    What a load of crap!

    Don’t blame guns. Don’t blame the justice system. Don’t blame the parents. Not sure if the mentally ill are to blame. Don’t spend money because the “delivery system” is broken.
    So let me be a prize jackass by using the childrens “honor” to head off any rational conversation that might just involve gun control.
    Montgomery is turning his position into a personal megaphone for right wing talking points that will further his probable shot at the Governors office.

    we have to have a framework and plan for mental health delivery before simply saying more monies are the answer.

    More hollow crap.
    Specifics? How did it get to this point?
    What’s your plan to fix it?
    How do you fix it without more money?

    C’mon Montgomery, quit embarrassing yourself by denying the elephant in the room. What is the common denominator to these tragedies that you and your rightwing cohorts don’t have the balls to admit?
    Too easy access to guns.

    For the “Guns don’t kill people…” nitwits.

    People with guns kill people.

  3. Comment by Timmys Cat on December 15, 2012 4:28 pm

    Good news (Wild) Bill Montgomery! I found money where we don’t have to raise taxes!
    Just close loopholes like your party says will keep us from the fiscal cliff.

    Once all the direct and indirect medical, legal and societal costs are factored together, the annual cost of gun violence in America amounts to $100 billion.

    Dang! Did it again. Facts is so LIBERAL

    bold me

  4. Comment by Mike Slater on December 15, 2012 5:41 pm

    Well Timmys Cat you got one thing right. People with guns kill people. It’s not the gun it’s the people.

  5. Comment by todd on December 15, 2012 7:54 pm

    actually, it’s the guns

    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

  6. Comment by Timmys Cat on December 15, 2012 8:41 pm

    Speakina of loopholes.

  7. Comment by Timmys Cat on December 15, 2012 9:04 pm

    todd is right. It actually is the guns.

    –States with higher gun ownership rates and weak gun laws have the highest rates of gun death according to a new analysis by the Violence Policy Center (VPC) of just-released 2008 national data (the most recent available) from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control.

    AZ is #12.

    interesting SITE

  8. Comment by Timmys Cat on December 15, 2012 9:31 pm

    More from site

    People of all age groups are significantly more likely to die from unintentional firearm injuries when they live in states with more guns, relative to states with fewer guns. On average, states with the highest gun levels had nine times the rate of unintentional firearms deaths compared to states with the lowest gun levels.

    A federal government study of unintentional shootings found that 8% of such shooting deaths resulted from shots fired by children under the age of six.

    my bold

    Care to try for children kill children, guns don’t ?

  9. Comment by Bob Regan on December 16, 2012 10:23 am

    Arizona will neither look at gun control nor will it improve the mental health care system. That’s how they will fill up the 1000 new private prison beds included in the current budget.(wonder how many people could get mental health care for the money this will cost?) The reason is because Arizona has the most pig ignorant electorate in the nation. How else do you explain them electing incompetent and/or corrupt people in election after election. It’s time we stopped complaining loudly about the politicians like Montgomery and start complaining LOUDLY about the people who put them in office.

  10. Comment by Mike Slater on December 16, 2012 1:11 pm

    The VPC is a liberal anti-gun organization who’s goal is more gun control and gun bans.

    Bob, sounds like you and your friends can’t get your people elected. Perhaps a move to California would be more to your liking.

  11. Comment by todd on December 16, 2012 1:32 pm

    Ah yes, clearly any group who discusses facts about gun violence and advocates changed to the law should be discounted entirely. Only people talking about how wonderful guns are and how they should be allowed everywhere should be listened to.

    I don’t even know if I think gun control is the right approach to dealing with the issue of gun violence in the US, but I do know that you gun fetishists had better start coming up with some better arguments that the crap I’ve seen after this latest massacre.

  12. Comment by Timmys Cat on December 16, 2012 3:24 pm

    Facts are hard to make snotty, stupid and dishonest comments about.

    The number of preschoolers killed by guns in 2008 (88) and in 2009 (85) was nearly double the
    number of law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty in 2008 (41) and 2009 (48).

    Looks like some gun owners would rather allow toddlers to be shot to death than be inconvenienced by gun laws.

    True Colors

  13. Comment by Mike Slater on December 16, 2012 6:28 pm

    Todd, I own 3 semi-automatic hand guns, a shotgun and a hunting rifle. Does that mean I have a gun fetish?

    My son’s a policeman and has more guns than I due, including an AR-15. Does that mean he has a gun fetish too?

    We own these guns for 3 reasons. One is hunting, two is target practice and three is personal protection.

    Gun control means using both hands and hitting the target every time.

  14. Comment by Donna on December 16, 2012 7:30 pm

    Merely owning guns doesn’t make someone a gun fetishist. But saying things like – “Gun control means using both hands and hitting the target every time” – is a strong signal that someone is one.

  15. Comment by todd on December 16, 2012 9:37 pm

    Mike Slater
    The issue is not how many guns, it is the attitude.

  16. Comment by Mike Slater on December 16, 2012 10:00 pm

    Todd, I’ve been a member of the NRA for 30 years and a concealed carry permit holder for 15 years so does that mean I have an attitude?

    Donna, the words gun control to a gun owner means something very different than what a anti-gun person thinks.

  17. Comment by todd on December 16, 2012 11:08 pm

    Your history of gun ownership is irrelevant. Your failure to admit that there is a clear connection between the number of guns and gun deaths is evidence. What would be far more honest a position for gun advocates would be to actually argue that while more guns do lead to more guy deaths, that nothing should be done to limit guns. Instead, we are treated to truly inane and inaccurate arguments about Constitutional history, crime statistics and the value of guns. Truth is, there is a segment of the population that finds gun ownership a potent symbol of power and imagine themselves some type of hero for carrying or possession guns. In addition, they see themselves as defenders of freedom by incessantly whining about non existent threats when all they have done is protect the profits of the industry which makes the object they fetishize.

  18. Comment by Laurel on December 17, 2012 7:51 am

    “No, it’s not true that the criminal justice system is the default provider of mental health services in general.”

    Perhaps you should read this before you say that’s not true…

    http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/will-the-sandy-hook-massacre-be-americas-tipping-point-20121216-2bhfy.html

    @Mike Slater, I would expect your son, as a police officer, would have several guns. He also, I would expect, has been trained to use them safely. That does not mean that ANYONE should have the right to own an AR-15, a military weapon.

    However, the gun lobby, and some idiot politicians, who INSIST that MORE guns in our schools, movie theaters, malls, etc would prevent such gun violence is a FALSE argument. There were armed bystanders at the Tucson shooting two years ago; none discharged their weapons that day to stop Jared Loughner. He was subdued when he paused to reload. Why did none of those armed citizens shoot him? Because they were afraid of hitting innocent bystanders.

    I have never seen anyone use an AR-15 for hunting. It is a weapon built for the sole purpose of killing as many people as possible in as short a time as possible. These types of weapons have no place in civilian society and should be banned.

    “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

    It is time to return to the original text and intent of the 2nd Amendment. A well regulated militia requires arms, not every individual with a need/desire/fetish to feel the caress of cold steel capable of killing many people in a few seconds. If you want to use an AR-15 so badly, join the G-D DAMN MILITARY and get proper training on its use and care.

  19. Comment by Donna on December 17, 2012 12:02 pm

    The majority of mentally ill people do not commit crimes so, no, the criminal justice system is not their default health care provider.

  20. Comment by Laurel on December 17, 2012 12:18 pm

    Donna, we’ll have to agree to disagree, then.

    When there is no mental health access but for those who are in prison, I see a criminal justice system that is their only access to mental health care.

    When the rate of mental illness in prison is five times greater than that of the general population, I see a civilian mental health care system that is insufficient to deal with the problem.

    With state-run treatment centers & hospitals closed, prisons have become the default mental health care system.

    If a mentally ill person has not committed a crime, he/she receives no help. Only those who have committed a crime seem to have any access at all to the help they need.

  21. Comment by Donna on December 17, 2012 12:32 pm

    “If a mentally ill person has not committed a crime, he/she receives no help” – that’s what I’m saying. Most mentally ill people do not commit crimes. And they are more likely to be poor. So they get no help.

  22. Comment by Laurel on December 17, 2012 12:46 pm

    But in the cases of Klebold & Harris, Jared Loughner, James Holmes, Adam Lanza, they did not come from poor families. They were not homeless. They had no prior criminal record. And yet they received no mental health care prior to their crimes, despite there being warning signs.

    Yes, this latest tragedy shines a light on our lax gun laws, but it also shines a light on our inadequate mental health system. Bill Montgomery is wrong to place all the blame on the mental health system, but you are also wrong to think this should only be a conversation about gun cuntrol.

  23. Comment by Timmys Cat on December 17, 2012 1:35 pm

    Perhaps it would be best if we stop equating the crimes that the mentally ill do commit as being totally violent. Most of them involve drugs and alcohol; as a means to self medicate. Most of the crimes are property crimes or minor fighting.
    If the fear of the mentally ill is so disturbing then why are virtually no serious barriers to weapons and on line ordering of unlimited bullets by the mentally ill?

    The mentally ill debate is a dodge to take the spotlight off a country awash in guns and their fetishists who fight like addicts to keep access to their weapons.
    The treatment or lack of is a serious issue. But to combine the two problems thrusts some of the onus on the mentally ill.
    The bottom line is that with more accountability and more limits to weapons these kinds of crimes would be reduced, no matter what the mental state of a perpetrator.

    .

  24. Comment by Donna on December 17, 2012 2:14 pm

    I am deeply uncomfortable with how violence and mental illness are being conflated in the aftermath of this incident. Not only because it hurtfully and unfairly stigmatizes mentally ill people and counterproductively discourages them from getting treatment, but it also hands predators and abusers a sympathy card to play to escape consequences and further entrap their victims.

    When someone says “no one in their right mind would do X” because X is so horrific I want to point out that no one in his right mind would sexually assault dozens of little boys either. Do you really want to hand guys like Jerry Sandusky a “mental illness” card to play? Because they will play it. All day long.

  25. Comment by Mike Slater on December 17, 2012 2:16 pm

    Laurel, The AR-15 is not a military weapon. It’s a semi-automatic that shoots a .223 caliber round. It’s a civilian version of the military’s M-16 fully automatic rifle.

    I personally know several hunters, including my son, that use the AR-15 for hunting.

    If you have cable TV check out the hunting channels and see how many hunters use AR-15’s..

    I have one question for you. Who are you to say what type of weapon a person should be allowed to own?

  26. Comment by Timmys Cat on December 17, 2012 3:08 pm

    Mmmm, I was thinking along the same lines.
    Most pedophiles who perpetrate, against either sex, are straight white males in the 20-30+ range. Most have no mental illness. Should that group be stigmatized?
    Most murderers are not mentally ill, as are most violent criminals of any crime.

    Mental illness does not mean a complete loss of right or wrong or human empathy. It is as it’s called, an illness. Some do act out violently like a lot of people who are not classified as mentally ill.
    Again the bottom line is acting out violently without almost unfettered access to weapons no matter what the mental health of the individual.
    There are a lot less innocent casualties, including the one acting out.

    Since the discussion is on mental health, I do question what mind set refuses to face the fact that the producers and some users of a product that has killed untold thousands of innocent Americans react, some almost violently, as what to is seen as a threat to their rights and their need to possess so much firepower. They refuse to admit the consequences of so many weapons and react with paranoia if any rational discussion is brought up.

  27. Comment by Timmys Cat on December 17, 2012 4:38 pm

    So?
    Since gun fanatics are so afraid of the government restricting their legal right to weapons, will they join women in their fear of the government restricting their legal right to an abortion?

  28. Comment by Mike Slater on December 17, 2012 7:45 pm

    The people calling for more gun control and gun bans are the same ones that condone abortion. Could it be they only care about kids after they’re born?

  29. Comment by todd on December 17, 2012 8:36 pm

    Hey guns don’t kill people, everything’s else BESIDES guns kill people.

  30. Comment by Mike Slater on December 17, 2012 8:53 pm

    Todd, guns don’t kill people, it’s the people pulling the trigger that kill people.

    I could put my fully loaded 9MM semi-automatic handgun on my kitchen table and leave it there for years and if no one touched it nothing would happen. Guns don’t shoot by themselves it takes a finger to pull the trigger.

  31. Comment by Timmys Cat on December 17, 2012 9:56 pm

    Yawn

    A fallacy is incorrect argumentation in logic and rhetoric resulting in a lack of validity, or more generally, a lack of soundness.

    CIRCULAR REASONING: This fallacy uses a claim as its own grounds. A popular bumper sticker reads:
    “Guns don’t kill people; people kill people.” This argument is circular—nobody ever claimed guns go around all by
    themselves shooting people. Of course people kill people. But this “begs the question” as to whether guns make it
    easier to do so. In fact, circular reasoning is often called “begging the question.” Many times we fail to examine our
    most strongly held beliefs, so that when they are challenged, we resort to circular reasoning as a defense.

  32. Comment by todd on December 18, 2012 11:33 am

    Bingo, Timmy’s Cat!

  33. Comment by Bob Regan on December 29, 2012 3:23 pm

    Now, now, you all keep your beady little eyes focused on all those shiny guns. While you’re focused on you 2nd amendment rights, the religious right is doing everything in it’s power to rid you of all those pesky OTHER RIGHTS.

    Before you know it, they’ll all be gone and all you’ll be left with is THEIR bible, and all those shiny guns. And neither one will save you.

  34. Comment by Poetry on January 1, 2013 8:17 am

    Where I live asking somnoee if they own a gun would get a “yes” about as often as asking them if they owned a car. The truth that when secnds count the police are ony minutes away is quite obviouis in rural America.I bought my first pistol a few weeks ago, primarily for home protection and to carry on walks and bicycle rides. You never know what kind of animals my pop out of the woods. Bears and mountain lions have been reported in my county. I’ve seen a bobcat on my back porch and in my front yard. Plus a wild dog or coyote is always a possibilty.As for doctors, my doctor made enough mistakes in my treatment for me to go elsewhere. Simple stuff like incorrectly running glucose test and such. We could save a lot of lives if doctors policed themselves better.I think I’ll use Trey’s response if asked. I keep my gun unloaded but the clip and gun within reach of each other.

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